What must one do to be saved?

A dialog on #prosapologian on Undernet that was abruptly ended.

My after-comments inserted in blue
[20:45] {CathApol} Ortho... got time for a question from the debate?
[20:46] {Ortho} Sure, Scott, I guess.
[20:46] {CathApol} You were asked, "What must one do to be saved?"
OK, here is the question, let the reader not lose focus, even though it would appear those answering the question seemed to be diverting attention from this question to other topics.
[20:47] {Ortho} Actually, Sungenis was asked that.
[20:47] {CathApol} You answered though...
[20:47] {Ortho} I got 30 seconds to add my two bits, as I recall.
Irrelevent, but let us proceed:
[20:47] {CathApol} "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ with a
[20:47] {CathApol} faith that is a true faith. A faith that I
[20:47] {CathApol} believe only comes from God. A faith
[20:47] {CathApol} that does not claim anything for its self;
[20:47] {CathApol} and believe that He is a sufficient
[20:47] {CathApol} savior who sacrificed in your behalf
[20:47] {CathApol} avails before God. That's what you
[20:47] {CathApol} must do."
[20:47] {Ortho} Yeah, for 30 seconds.
[20:47] {Ortho} Hey, cool. Thanks for typing that up.
[20:47] {skyman`} {g}
[20:47] {CathApol} Doesn't that say "doing" something?
[20:48] {skyman`} oh brother
[20:48] {bishop3} he he LOL..Dr Bible
[20:48] {Ortho} Heh, uh, nope.
[20:48] {Makaira} Oh no! HAHAHAH! Is he actually going there?
[20:48] {pronomian} The promise of God is that whosoever believes in Christ crucified shall not perish but have everlasting life. God calls everyone to repent of their sins and to believe n Jesus Christ, "repent and believe, every one of you!"
Please note, pronomian's quote indicates that we must "DO" something!
[20:48] {Ortho} {CathApol} believe only comes from God. A faith
[20:48] {Ortho} {CathApol} that does not claim anything for its self;
[20:48] {Ortho} {CathApol} an dbelileve that He is a sufficient
[20:48] {Ortho} {CathApol} savior who sacrificed in your behalf
[20:48] {Ortho} {CathApol} avails before God.
Please note, Ortho leaves out his last statement from this quote: "That is what you must DO (emphasis mine).
[20:48] {CathApol} That was also the question I asked of you when you first agreed to the online debate with me...
[20:48] {Ortho} What doe sthat say?
It says that you refused to answer me after accepting the challenge over a year ago. But here we are, engaged in the discussion, so let us continue...
[20:49] {Makaira} A faith that I
[20:49] {Makaira} {CathApol} believe only comes from God.
[20:49] {Makaira} A faith that I
[20:49] {Ortho} Which was, Scott?
[20:49] {Makaira} {CathApol} believe only comes from God.
[20:50] {CathApol} {CathApol} "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ with a
[20:50] {CathApol} {CathApol} faith that is a true faith.
[20:50] {CathApol} Believing is an act
[20:50] {Ortho} Yes, in opposition to the dead faith of James 2.
[20:50] {CathApol} something we "do"
[20:50] {CathApol} so we are required to do something... right?
[20:50] {Ortho} Of course we believe----but we are enabled to do so by God, who regenerates His elect people.
We are enabled, so we can choose NOT to do this, right?
[20:50] {Makaira} ~grk eph 2 8
[20:50] {Logos} Eph2:8 th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia thv pistewv kai touto ouk ex umwn yeou to dwron (GRK)
[20:51] {Makaira} ~grk eph 2 9
[20:51] {Logos} Eph2:9 ouk ex ergwn ina mh tiv kauchshtai (GRK)
[20:51] Ortho thinks he's talking to Geisler all of a sudden.
[20:51] {Ortho} Strange that it's the same topic, isn't it?
[20:51] {skyman`} shades of Geisler indeed
[20:51] {skyman`} Mak, what did you think of the dialogue?
(Diversionary tactics)
[20:51] {Ortho} Faith is not an autonomous act that "actuates" God's grace, Scott.
[20:52] {CathApol} Even if God enables us, we "do" something though...
[20:52] {Makaira} Something originating from sinful man, verses something origination from a changed nature.
[20:52] {Ortho} We "do" something as an infallible result of what He DOES in us, Scott.
[20:52] {Ortho} God initiates, we respond.
So, we're getting somewhere? "God initiates, we respond!" (emphasis mine). Again, we see Ortho admitting that we DO something!
[20:52] {skyman`} ~niv john 6 29
[20:52] {Logos} John6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (NIV)
To skyman I say, "AMEN!" What is the context here? Is God doing the work, or is the "work of God" the work that is to be done by the people of God?
[20:52] {Ortho} That is why Jesus can say,
[20:52] {skyman`} a no-brainer
[20:52] {CathApol} Once given the Gift, we are required to do something, even by your own words, or that is the dead faith we find in James (2).
[20:53] {Ortho} ~niv John 6:39-40
[20:53] {Logos} John6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
[20:53] {Logos} John6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (NIV)
[20:53] {Ortho} I do wish you could break out of your human-centered mindset, Scott, and realize that what I'm saying is totally God-centered.
[20:53] {Ortho} What I *do* does not make it possible for God to "do" something. What God does makes it possible for ME to "do" something.
We're kind of dancing around this answer now aren't we?
[20:54] {CathApol} I am centered on God and what He "requires" of me.
[20:54] {Ortho} Jesus fulfilled God's law in my place, Scott.
[20:54] {Makaira} "Your thoughts of God are to human." Luther to Erasmus
[20:54] {CathApol} I didn't say that what I do makes it possible for God to do something...
[20:54] {Ortho} And the death He died He died in my place, so that the life He lived I can have through His grace.
[20:54] {CathApol} But you said that we must do something?
[20:54] {Ortho} That is, however, the view of Rome.
[20:54] {skyman`} Mak, what did you think of the dialogue?
[20:55] {Makaira} Funny, sky.
[20:55] {skyman`} Mak {g} it was
[20:55] {Ortho} What are you fishing for, Scott?
[20:56] {CathApol} Well, you have always said that we don't "do" anything, but in this debate you said we *do* do something...
[20:56] {Ortho} { sigh }
[20:56] {Ortho} I figured.
[20:56] {Makaira} He's looking for you to admit that there is a human element to faith and that all this is symantics brought on by an overreaction to Roman Catholicism.
[20:56] {CathApol} Pretty much confirming James...
[20:56] {Ortho} Yes, Mak, I see that.
[20:56] {Ortho} LOL
[20:56] {Ortho} Sorry, Scott, you couldn't be farther from the truth.
[20:56] {Makaira} Thus, a point in the book by Sungenis.
[20:57] {Ortho} After all these years, you still haven't listened to a word I've said, Scott.
[20:57] {CathApol} Well, do we have to "do" something or not?
[20:57] {skyman`} Cath, I have a question for you.
[20:57] {Ortho} Do something to gain salvation? No.
[20:57] {CathApol} James, I am listening and that is why I am asking...
[20:57] {Ortho} No, Scott, you aren't.
[20:57] {Ortho} You are looking for something you can use, not listening.
[20:57] {CathApol} How about "do" something to "keep" salvation?
[20:58] {Ortho} Nope.
[20:58] {Ortho} Keep going.
[20:58] {Ortho} How about, "We will do what is natural to the regenerate heart: do good works out of love for the one who raised us from spiritual death to spiritual life and gave us the gift of eternal life."
[20:58] {bishop3} hello cunnin
[20:58] {skyman`} Cath, do you believe that Christ's death on the cross in history did not atone for future sins?
Here skyman attempts to divert the subject of my question to another topic - one that he likely feels more comfortable dealing with. Please make a note of the time he asked this question too.
[20:58] {CathApol} So, we are not to "persevere" (a work), or "work" out our salvation in fear and trembling?
[20:59] Beukeboom [~saints@05016168.ppptlh.nettally.com] has joined #prosapologian
[20:59] {skyman`} 2ND ATTEMPT: Cath, do you believe that Christ's death on the cross in history did not atone for future sins?
OK, note the time of THIS request! One minute later, and an interuption to the dialog between myself and Ortho. Also note, the ALL CAPS, which is seen as "yelling" on the internet, so he seems to be getting a bit "hot" here. But note, within this same minute of time, I answer him below...
[20:59] {Makaira} ~niv eph 2 8 9
[20:59] {Logos} Eph2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
[20:59] {Ortho} We are to persevere---not to keep our salvation, but because it is natural for saving faith to do so; we "work out" our salvation in the sense Paul indicates: in living it out day to day.
Well, I would have liked to deal with this statement more, but skyman successfully diverted me to his topic - and at this point I am about 3 minutes from being banned from the channel.
Had I remained focused on the original debate, I would have asked Ortho: "What does it mean to persevere? And, when Paul says we are to `work out' our salvation, he says `in fear and trembling.' Fear and trembling of what? That we might lose our salvation?

[20:59] {Logos} Eph2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (NIV)
[20:59] {CathApol} sky... His death was enough to wash away future sins... but that is not automatic...
[20:59] {Beukeboom} Hello all
[20:59] {CathApol} we must "do" something again...
OK, please note, I answered skyman, and then attempted to bring the discussion back on topic.
[21:00] {skyman`} I see
[21:00] Ortho shudders to see that statement, almost identical to a quote from THAT book...
What book? That one came out of nowhere, but since Sungenis' name came up earlier, one can only assume Ortho was referring to one of his books.
[21:00] {CathApol} confession
Here, I was trying to show something we must do, but this is used against me, again to divert from the question at hand.
[21:00] {Makaira} So, his death does not atone for ALL sins, huh Cath?
Another diversionary attempt from another member of the channel.
[21:00] {CathApol} Mak, I didn't say that.
[21:00] {skyman`} Cath, Sungenis said it was not
Yet another diversion... who cares, in the context of this discussion what Robert Sungenis had to say? Irrelevent!
[21:00] {Beukeboom} confession? confession to whom?
[21:00] {Makaira} What about unbelief? It is a sin, is it not?
Again, Makaira introduces yet another diversion.
[21:00] {CathApol} I am not arguing for Sungenis.
Again, I try to keep the discussion on track.
[21:01] {skyman`} Cath, why then don't you go & correct Sungenis' theology instead of coming here & trying to tell us what we believe?
skyman is still on the diversionary tactic.
[21:01] bishop3 goes ahead and sez..GEISLER
I haven't a clue as to who Geisler is, evidently someone else asked a similar question of the channel - but in dealing with me and my question, "GEISLER" is just yet another diversion.
[21:01] {CathApol} confession to one whom God has chosen, for whose sins they forgive, are forgiven... those whose sins they retain, are retained.
Well, darn, I went after the diversion! Mea culpa though I initiated this part of the discussion, but I should have asked Beukeboom to bring up this topic after the original discussion had closed.
[21:01] {skyman`} Cath, I think you ought to go & try to clean up around your own front porch
skyman is still going down this diversion from the topic at hand.
[21:01] {CathApol} sky... I am not telling you what to believe....
Here I again fell for the diversion and answered skyman.
[21:02] {Makaira} Does Christ atone for all sins or not?
[21:02] {Beukeboom} {CathApol} confession to one whom God has chosen {----And whom is this specifically?
I didn't get a chance to answer this one - but Beukeboom is still going off on this tangent. (And in fairness to Beuk, not that he just joined us at 20:59 - I take the responsibility for not directing Beuk to the topic that was being discussed prior to his arrival).
[21:02] {CathApol} I asked a question... and answered someone elses...
Here I am clarifying to skyman that I am not telling him what to believe, rather I merely asked a question, and answered someone else's (Beukeboom's).
[21:02] {skyman`} CathApol, indeed you are
[21:02] {skyman`} Cath, at least be honest
Here skyman impuned my intergrity, to which I got a bit upset...
[21:02] {skyman`} You tried to do that with Ortho
[21:02] {CathApol} sky... DON'T call me a liar!
Here I laid into skyman, but he has the power of the op here, as you'll soon see... and I don't, so mistake on my part. (Not that I was wrong in attempting to correct him, but to do so when he holds the "power" in this channel, was foolish - I should have asked him a question instead of making a demand).
[21:02] {Ortho} Ok, OK....
[21:02] {Ortho} Calm down everyone.
Ortho (the channel manager I might add) attempts to settle things down, but as you can see on the next line, he is too late for skyman. The sad part is that he didn't step in, at least to me in either private or my channel, to intervene - and allowed skyman's kick/ban to remain until skyman (assumably) removed it.
[21:02] skyman` sets mode: +b *!*@d2-13.pres.goodnet.com
*** Log file closed: 7/3/99 9:02:42 PM

After getting the kick/ban treatment from sky, I went into a private chat with sky, which I won't quote that verbatim, but suffice it to say, I was a bit upset that he kicked and banned me for making a request to not be called a liar.
When sky said, "Cath, at least be honest" the implication was that I was being "dishonest," in other words, a liar. This is why I made the demand to not call me a liar. Well, sky, it would appear, doesn't like to be told what to do. In the private chat he told me that he was upset that I falsely accused him! Well, I told him that I didn't mean to insult him if he took it that way. He accepted that and when I checked the channel later, the ban was lifted. I was a bit disappointed though that he did not return the favor and apologize to me for insinuating I was being dishonest. Anyway, as you can see my discussion with Ortho abruptly ended due to the intervention of one of his ops - as if James/Ortho couldn't handle it himself. (And another disappointing factor was that Ortho didn't attempt to contact me after the kick/ban to either continue in my channel or in private.

So, this question left unanswered, I challenge Ortho to continue this discussion in #cathapol on Undernet or Starlink-IRC or in email, to be posted/added to this posting here. James, my email address is bigscott@a2z.org (another fact he's quite aware of). If you see no further responses here - it's because none have come in yet from White.